Premier League chiefs are plotting to rebalance the diversity among coaches in top-flight clubs, with an initiative designed to guarantee greater inclusivity within the English coaching system.
The Mail Online suggests that the ‘Coaching Index’ will seek to promote black, Asian, and mixed heritage ethnicities amongst Premier League coaches. In an effort to create a level playing field, every coach will be identified by their qualifications and experience in the application process, opposed to by their name. I take a view that this particular move in respect of the candidates could prove to be useful. There is plenty of research out there that points to discrimination from the very beginning of the interview vetting stage. Manchester University published a number of compelling arguments in respect f how the standard process could become weighted against various people.
What I would add, however, is that these types of initiatives will only succeed if the best people end up getting hired. What the world needs is a meritocracy, and for very straightforward reasons. When I travel by aeroplane, I presume, I expect the pilot and the good people in air traffic control to be the best folk for the job, irrespective of their race. colour or sexual orientation. Should this not be the case, then we face a different type of discrimination, which could result in catastrophic tragedy.
Exactly
These stats would be true if everyone in the uk was involved in football.. But they are not. We have large areas in Birmingham and Leeds for example where hundreds of thousands of muslims have emigrated.. The lads and women young and old have nothing to do with football. It’s not in their culture… Your whole argument is flawed, no manager ‘should’ be a colour.
As I demonstrated with the quote from your earlier post, you did fail to distinguish. And again, I doubt that the socioeconomic and class factors you refer to are a significant factor in the lack of representation of ethnic minorities in football management.
As to a box ticking exercise, it doesn’t read that way to me. Making at least the first round of selection anonymous is a fairly good way of cutting out racial bias, whether or not conscious, from at least the first round of selection. It’s also something I’ve heard of being used in job selection in which the socioeconomic and class factors you mention are far more likely to be a factor, for example, the world of opera.
🙄
Man, unless missed something, and that was tongue-in-cheek that’s possibly the ridiculous comment I’ve read on this blog.
Of course that’s the way it SHOULD be. It’s not. It’s not because of the inherent racism in the British psyche. That’s what needs to change. This sh1t isn’t a football issue, it’s a toxin that permeates every facet of life for non-white citizens every day in every profession. It sucks, but to try and compensate by saying “you must hire X% of non-white staff” or face sanctions, just turns bias into counter bias for the sake of avoiding punishment. The issue is so much deeper and so much more complicated than that.
‘Most’ if talking in mathematical terms..but, there’s a MUCH larger % of top level coaches that are white compared to top level (let’s say Premier League) Footballers playing the game.
I’d disagree with the point about airline pilots; that – from someone who’s been close to the industry – is very much based on education.
You can probably draw some nice Venn diagrams to show an intersect between class and education, but if you look at for example the history of the RAF, one of their founding principals was to recruit on skill rather than class, hence a much higher proportion of higher ranks from non elite classes.
Being an airline pilot is very much a case of having the aspiration and the engineering capabilities.
On every other aspect, I agree. 33% of premiership footballers in 2017 where BAME, so it stands to reason that a lower number would be coaches. That 33% is significant growth since the formation of the premiership; I’d be amazed if in ten years when this generation has retired, there won’t be closer to 33% BAME representation of coaches.
Really? That sounds so so much like the colonial attitude
I’m sure it’s not what you meant; probably more to the view that with a greater percentage of representation, there comes a greater chance that skilled people will emerge – people like, much as I dislike his club heritage, P Vieira. Right now, the numbers are lower than they should be, so getting real gems is harder; I’d be absolutely certain that in the future, when there is greater diversity in the coaching work-force, the number of highly talented non-white coaches will be much higher.
Indeed.. One would expect the majority of managers here to be white, because there are more white people.. Most players don’t go on to be managers. Alot become coaches, but managing is exclusive… Perhaps a lot of black players from the 80s and 90s were put off because of the racism. Apart from Gullit, Hughton, NES, and Ince (who was never really a manager, more a brief celebrity. He ruffled feathers as a player so was destined to never be a good manager) I can’t think of any more.. Which is a bit weird.
It’s also miss-representative because it considers the country as a whole rather than the people in the industry.
I would argue that for males, my organisation is one of the most diverse I’ve ever worked in; we’re a UK company with non-uk owners and significant world presence in the IT sector.
Our senior management is a diverse mix of nationalities, creed, colour and sex; I’m just under the VP level, where the majority of my leadership peers are not White British – there’s two (I’m one), we’ve got a White Greek, an Indian, a 2nd generation British Indian, and an Indonesian. In the team I run, 65% are Indian heritage (1st and 2nd generation), 1 Argentinian, 1 Romanian. 30% are female (mainly in the lower grades, through the graduate programme, for which they made 60%).
Over 80% of our IT recruits are of Indian heritage. Probably 70% of applicants are of Indian heritage.
Race doesn’t come into it for us; it’s about the technical skills and attitude, for which the market is heavily skewed toward India.
Where we struggle is senior female roles – but that’s changing as IT becomes more attractive to women.
Applying the same approach, it’s roughly 33% BAME representation in English football, so rather than the 6 out of 7 white, proper representation would be 2 in 3 white – 66% instead of the 85%.
Again that’s not the whole picture though because that 33% is the position now, not the picture 10 years ago – I’d anticipate that in a few years time when this generation of players retire, you’ll see closer to 33% representation.
What’s disappointing with the article is that it doesn’t tell us what the perceived benchmark should be; other than that, first selection will be based purely on qualifications and experience which is only a good thing.
As an aside, I do take exception to this
If you look at what I’ve written above, certainly in my industry there is no racial bias. That may be because the skilled roles I need to recruit for already positively discriminate, but…
There may well, be but it also may be a lack of applicants with the skills required that is the key factor, literally a lack of representation rather than purely bias?
So’s that! 😂
I didn’t fail to distinguish from the reasons around the racial representation in football and those related to class in other jobs at all. So from your own experience.(and mine incidentally) you agree with the class and education thing.
The point I’m making is that the lack of representation in those high paid jobs from a diverse section of the class structure has nothing to do with any obvious bias. It’s to do with the circumstances in which you are in, as well as other contributory cultural factors.
So what I’m saying is that circumstance and culture is also playing it’s part in football only in a different way. So there is a lack of representation because of a whole raft of reasons, regardless of any either perceived or obvious ‘racism’ being factored in.
So this is very much a box-ticking exercise, unless it’s about actual engagement with the actual people they would like to see more involved.
Okay, so my comments have been based on the idea that applicants will be racially profiled and sorted through. With those of certain ethnicity being favoured, regardless of either of their abilities in comparison with one another.
If this isn’t the case, then it’s not relevant, although you don’t seem sure either way, so who knows…
Correct. This is called accurate representation
Just seen John Barnes speak on Alex Salmond show on RT news re racism in football and society. Highly recommend it.
I lived in Korea and I can concur. Also belligerent alcoholics. The Irish of Asia 😉
That’s a racial stereotype!
It’s racial profiling and then sorting through who you want and who you’d rather which is discriminatory and therefore racist. Two wrongs suddenly make a right in this case? 🤔
I have read it properly and you fail to distinguish between football and the various roles in which socioeconomics and class/background do play a role.
‘Of course there needs to be more people of colour in refereeing, coaching etc and there should be every effort made to encourage and make it inclusive but just pushing people into jobs with less ability (regardless of their racial identity) surely isn’t logical?
I just find it frustrating that people fail to understand that the social and economics of this are key.’
I completely agree that socioeconomics and class/background play a part in the make up of many jobs/professions to the extent that being from a relatively poor or working class background will reduce the likelihood of a person going to university and joining the professions. However, I don’t think that for a moment applies to football management, which is after all the main topic under discussion here.
I’m a working class boy who went to a crap secondary school where things like university were never thought of and I’m pretty certain that none of my classmates had relatives who’d been to university. Careers visits for us were from the armed forces and the merchant navy. To the best of my knowledge, no one from my year at school went onto university via the usual route of A levels and university entry at age 21. The only person I know of who did a degree pretty much straight from school did a fine art degree and I think they waived the some of the entrance requirements because he was a talented sculptor. So yes, I’m very well aware that class etc plays a part. Not having relatives etc who went to university or some general expectation of going onto higher things can make entering university and the professions look incredibly difficult and requiring of a big brain. Once you’ve been, you realise there’s no great mystery to it and you don’t have to be a mega brain to get a degree (Dominic Raab would be a giant clue here). A good many of my classmates were as a capable of getting a good degree as me had the circumstances been right, but like me, I suspect it was just something they never thought of. However, I suspect that what kept us all out of football management was an absence of playing ability to provide the entry into the industry.
Imagine pushing this kind of quotas into nba. Absolutely no one would want that, jeez.
racism and discrimination disapear at the very moment we make no difference between nationality, gender or race. And this thing right here is just sort of backwards
I think what escapes those who claim this bias is that it could just be that black ex pro’s aren’t interested in going into football manager or coaching roles when their careers finish.
When the word Asian is mentioned. I take that to mean Indian or Pakistani. I speak
from experience to say that the majority of both nations look to cricket as the sport they want to excel in. Football is rarely considered.
It’s a big claim, and one I suspect with zero evidence to back it up. Racism be present and football being built on it are two entirely different things. There doesn’t seem to be a great deal of thinking before making these huge statements.
That comment is why there should be LOL icon
Built on Racism? Please expand, I’m genuinely intrigued.
Dexter – based on UK statistics, if you look at all the major ‘ethnic groups’ it comes out at 14% of the population. So one in seven managers should be from a non-white background. That’s 13 of 14 in the top 4 divisions. Of those 7 or 8 should be Asian, 3 or 4 should be ‘black’ and the rest should be mixed race/other ethnic origins.
You can say the same about coaches too….
But the bottom line is: 6 out of 7 managers should be white. Because six out of seven people in this country are white.
Well I dunno to be honest, thats how I read it, but looks like all the comments lifted from Mail Online have jumped to the same conclusion so I guess we’re none the wiser!
We should be treated equally and on what you have to offer the job.
I think we should get a S Korean coach in for Sonny, they seem to have a permanent smile on the faces so would cheer the place up.
Where is Tappa?…. And why does football have to be so complicated.. There are loads of top managers who were failed pros, alot of guys move towards management because they were rubbish at playing. Mourinho, Villa Boas and Schnapps spring to mind… In European countries one should expect the majority to be white managers. I would expect the majority of black managers from countries like Brazil and Portugal…. Employing people BECAUSE of their colour and race is PC madness.. Everyone should be employed because of their abilities and credentials regardless of the shade of their skin.
How many black ex professional footballers are there within the football pyramid, compared to white ex professional footballers? I don’t know the figure, let’s say 25% which might even be a little high nationally. Then factor in how many there were at the time they were playing, a lot of these guys are going to be in their late 30s and 40s. The vast majority of ex professional white footballers will not go back into the game in another role, and the same can be said for ex black players.
So perhaps, the underrepresentation isn’t quite as chronic as the statistics suggest. I believe in time there will be better representation anyway.
For goodness sake, the context in which I referred to class excluding certain people from certain jobs, was just another example. How on earth you could think I was talking about football coaches and refs being excluded by class is beyond me… All you need to do is read it properly.
First time he’s spring for anything beyond a spare Ginsters
Okay, so if all this is it’s just looking at applicants without any reference to their ethnic background then there is nothing to say. The headline gives the impression that this won’t just be the case, however if I’ve got it wrong and it is exactly as you say, then kindly disregard my comments. One can only work with the information one is provided with…
The point I’m making about airline pilot, and surgeons is that a large part society is economically and socially excluded from those jobs, without any real obvious bigotry in place. We are talking about a class structure.
Obviously this isn’t about class structure, but I don’t think it’s about racism as much as people are saying it is either. The proportion of white players, that go on to be coaches managers or referees a small percentage anyway. This is to do with society evolving, and I believe there will be more black coaches and referees in the future, this thing is slightly generational.
Encourage, make sure it’s diverse, look for talent in as many places as possible, pushing someone into a job ahead of someone else who is equally qualified because of their race is in its self ‘racist’, just the other way around. We’re all supposed to be equal aren’t we?
Don’t tell me, I’ve missed the point….
In most cases because in most cases most pro’s are white. However, it’s well documented that when black ex pro’s go specifically into management they don’t do so well. Is that because of the colour of their skin as some would have us believe. Or, they’re just not very good as football managers as many of their white counterparts.
Ironically, class and educational background (aside from passing the coaches badges) are highly unlikely to be major factors in the hiring of football coaches and football management is a happy hunting ground for working class boys and not so much for women and middle class highly educated boys.
I don’t know how much of a part racial bias plays in the under representation of folk from racial minorities in football management, but I suspect socioeconomics is not a likely cause.
Being a white ex-pro in the majority of cases
In theory, removing the name of the applicant from the initial application, does have some merit in countering any reflexive tendency towards discrimination against certain candidates, based upon ethnicity. However in practice, even if such candidates were initially selected, if the recruiter/CEO/owner still has any inherent bias against actually hiring such a candidate, then the result will be the same.
They employ a system in the NFL, called the Rooney Rule, which mandates that any head coaching or senior footballing executive hire must include at least one applicant interviewed from a racial minority. It hasn’t however led to any significant increase in the number of minority head coaches or GM’s in the NFL. With almost exclusively white ownership, it would seem there is still a natural gravitation towards those of the same ethnicity, in the hiring process.
The application process, for any job, should be entirely meritocratic. It is neither desirable nor equitable that any ‘special interest group’ should carry greater weight, in any job application process, by dint of representing a particular minority interest.
As an example, would you select a team, in any sport, based upon criteria other than merit? Should LGBTQ, racial or religious minorities be given special consideration? The question is manifestly absurd, so why should the process for hiring coaches be any different?
Employing selection criteria in the recruitment process, other than merit, is to adulterate the process and damage its credibility. It may be desirable that coaches are more reflective of the ethnic diversity of the players, but not by overt discrimination in favour of such candidates.
This is an issue that depends on respect between the two parties involved,namely the player and the coach/manager who has to prove himself to the player . It’s why we have so many failed ex players who simply could not gain the right level of respect from the players they were in charge of .
Take Solskjaer as an example, and that has nothing to do with ethnicity, it’s down to character and leadership which players demand from those in charge, it takes more than an arm round the shoulder or plain ignoring them, it’s something in-between and if you haven’t got it you get found out.
They won’t need the names. If it doesn’t say ex professional on the CV colour will be irrelevant.
The discrimination for the top jobs in coaching and management isn’t based on colour. It’s based on being an ex pro in the majority of cases.
No, I hadn’t read the article, as I don’t read the mail as a strict rule. I’ve broken that rule on this occasion for the purposes of this discussion, and my point remains.
Yes, we need get a lot more black and ethnic coaches onto training pitches and into boardrooms, that’s not in dispute, and the coaching index is doubtless a step in the right direction.
What I worry about is that clubs are “all tasked with meeting stringent diversity targets at coaching and boardroom level.”
Does this mean, for example, penalties for not meeting these targets? I think we need to tread carefully in this regard.
Jason Cundy springs to mind
‘will only succeed if the best people end up getting hired.’
Tis the way. Those that have had to endure refereeing a game between the Millwall Hawaiian Shakers and the Park Rangers Queens on a cold blistery Sunday night should easily make the final cut.
I agree with a lot of what you say and things are improving in terms of racism in the UK compared to the early 80s for example (I’m also old enough to remember the language used and jokes told as being commonplace and without any fear of recrimination), but there’s still an enormous way to go.
I also don’t think there’s any sense in comparing this situation with airline pilots or solicitors as so many people involved in football do come from a working class background.
For me positive discrimination can work if done at the right time and in the right way.
And the focus of it shouldn’t be to shoe horn under qualified coaches into top jobs- it should be about providing the right (maybe more than to folks of other backgrounds) opportunities in order to succeed.
In order for any coach of any colour or background to get the level where they are considered for the top coaching jobs, they have to have come through various stages already.
And it’s in those earlier stages where positive discrimination would be useful. Where the skill and knowledge levels are more evenly spread.
It’s about providing the same opportunities and encouraging younger folks into those kind of roles. And that in turn shows kids and young adults of certain backgrounds that there are opportunities in those areas.
I don’t know for a fact but would be willing to bet that a lot of young Black men and kids that perhaps don’t have the football playing ability to make it, but love football would love to go into coaching if they thought the same opportunities to succeed we’re there for them.
I also think clubs like ours, considering our geographical situation and the ethnic make up of the local community could do a lot in that area (maybe they already do?). Coaching initiatives in local colleges for example.
Diversity in any team focused workplaces or sectors is proven to bring benefits. Different ideas from different backgrounds/perspectives benefit the whole.
Correct, and on the radio the pundits on there are actually worse. Barely double-digit IQs.
The discrimination isn’t colour related. You try getting a high ranking coaching or managerial job at a professional football club without ever playing professionally. It’s almost impossible. How many pundits are people off the street on MSM ?
The theory being is that if you played pro football you must be the most knowledgeable. If you’ve ever listened to Paul Merson commentate you’d know this just isn’t true.
The job, any job should be about the best person for the job regardless of colour, creed, or whether you played the game professionally.
Sounds to me like the plan is that– ‘every coach will be identified by their qualifications and experience in the application process as opposed to their name’ – ie anonymously, and therefore on merit – so not sure how you have derived that there will be queue jumping based on box ticking?
Are you feeling like maybe you’re one of these “idiots” that didn’t read the article properly then Dexter?
I’m not saying there is zero bias related to race in employment, there is also a bias towards your class, the school or university you went to, your gender, your sexuality. I would say the UK is way ahead of European countries on all of this, and let’s be clear, it is now written into law that employers cannot discriminate on any of these grounds. It’s written into law because it’s wrong, everybody knows it’s wrong. It isn’t 1973…
You will always find someone somewhere that hates someone else because of what they look like. Thankfully now their numbers are dwindling by the day…
‘NEVER’ change? I disagree, some of us are old enough ro remember when racist language was everyday parlance, probably up until the early 1980’s. Casual, lazy racism which seems almost unbelievable nowadays. So in fact huge progress has been made, why can’t this continue? In fact I think it is, just look at the togetherness of the England team on all of it for example.
However while there should never be complacency and neither should we stop educating and being vigilant about it, we should acknowledge that we have come a hell of a long way. Which should give optimism for the future.
The idea that this country is hopelessly racist just doesn’t pass muster anymore. For example we have high ranking politicians in government from minority ethic backgrounds, Black and Asian. Why isn’t this the same in all areas of work etc? Social economics and culture is the reason why, not society being full of ‘racists’.
Of course there needs to be more people of colour in refereeing, coaching etc and there should be every effort made to encourage and make it inclusive but just pushing people into jobs with less ability (regardless of their racial identity) surely isn’t logical?
I just find it frustrating that people fail to understand that the social and economics of this are key. You’re never going to get many white working class people, particularly from areas of economic decline ever in high paid jobs, for example. Is that a bias about where they’re from? The way way they talk? Possibly, but it’s a chicken and egg thing. The better their education, the better off the communities they come from are, the better their value system becomes which is all related to social mobility. Boiling something down to race alone is often missing the point entirely, that’s my point.
I’m not an idiot, nor am I ignorant. I’ve dealt with religious discrimination all of my life. This is a grasping-at-straws proposal that ultimately won’t work. If you believe that discrimination in society will never change, read up on where I live. Life has changed here to the point that within 20 years it is unrecognisable from where we were before. It’s still not perfect, and there is still some distrust under the surface, but we are – for the most part – now living and working together as equals. This is down to strong community leadership and the will of wider society, not some board of directors deciding who gets hired and under what set of tick-boxes.
Dont compare Spurs to the blue muck. I remember when the NF came down in the 70s and got nowhere but did well at that mob and the mob in the east. There might be pockets of scummy supporters but it is well know that us and our hated neighbours are not hotbeds of racism whereas the other 2 are.
Exactly my point.
I agree completely. This is a formula that seeks to compensate for bias by employing counter-bias.
It is blatantly obvious that there is racial bias in the world of football. The almost absolute absence of black and Asian people in club management and higher up in the system is so one-sided it’s nothing short of an utter disgrace. The world and their auntie knows this.
I live in the north of Ireland, and I can draw parallels with what’s being proposed.
Some years ago, after the Good Friday Agreement, it was acknowledged that the police service here was staffed almost entirely by people from one section of the community, and it was decided that the re-branded police service would actively seek to bring the force towards a 50-50 recruitment.
Whilst that vision was to be commended in terms of its goals in terms of inclusivity, one couldn’t help but think that the recruitment processes would surely then be skewed in favour of religious background over merit.
As you very correctly say, this issue is about a far-reaching societal mindset that needs to change. Not just here in the British Isles, but all across Europe.
Reverse bias might be good for PR in the short term, but in the long run it just thinly papers over very big cracks in how we value people as a society.
you will NEVER change society’s view on racial equality. So at least try and get racial minorities into positions of influence to try. That is the only way. Too many fans. And I include Spurs fans are incredibly racist. I hear them all the time going on matchdays. But you like to call it “banter” It’s ironic Chelsea are know as the blue racists. Yet a big part of the footballing culture in England was built on racism.
If you actually read what I’ve written you will find that there is nothing to suggest that I am making light of the issue of race. I’m just pointing out that these issues are to do with society as a whole, so quite the opposite in fact.
So these issues have nothing to do with socioeconomics and culture then? Is that what you’re trying to say? Think before typing perhaps…
It’s ironic that you say this is a bias based on the colour of peoples skin. Oh dear.You truly have learned or do not understand anything about racial bias that minorities have to live with every single day.
Ifthese idiotic fans bothered to read the article it states that “the name of the person” would be removed from the initial application and choice would be based purely on qualifications and experience. If you don’t think there is a racial bias in any walk of life in the UK towards employment, as well as many other European countries, then you are the problem because of pure ignorance.
I can see the good will behind this but ask yourself the most pertinent question here, which fundamental makes this kind of initiative flawed, regardless of how well intended;
How many judges, barristers, solicitors, surgeons, doctors, airline pilots, company directors, racing drivers, composers, classical musicians, film directors (do I need to go on) come from working class or even lower middle class backgrounds? Regardless of their ethnic labelling.
This is biased and focused on the colour of people’s skin when the real issue behind a lack of representation is down to socioeconomics and culture.
When you consider how much larger the UK population of people with an ethnic background from the Asian subcontinent compared to people of African Caribbean or African heritage. This group’s representation within the sport of football is almost non existent, compared to say cricket.
Can we stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes in order to tick these. virtue signalling boxes? Perhaps we need to look at society as a whole rather than these utterly meaningless PC gestures.
You want the best people for the job, and yes if more of those people can be found within other ‘ethic groups’ then there should be every effort to do so. However, jumping the cue to tick boxes is unacceptable…